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Frances Forever: “I had to make a project to really show people what I can do”

• By Martyn Young
• Mon 9th August, 2021

Frances Forever has earned their place leading this here Hype batch with ridiculously charming single ‘space girl’, and new EP ‘paranoia party’, which is front-to-back amazing.

Words: Martyn Young. Photo: Lani Parrilla.

This is shaping up to be a landmark year for Frances Forever. Not only are they readying their second EP to follow the mega worldwide success of viral sensation ‘Space Girl’ and finally play shows in front of real actual human beings, they have also just graduated from college and are ready to take the leap from bedroom ukulele strumming student to bona fide alt-pop icon in the making. For Frances, the past couple of years have been quite the journey. 

“It’s been really interesting seeing where this takes me,” they begin on the day following their graduation. School is quite literally out for summer, and, indeed, forever. “I used to just write songs on one instrument like the ukulele or piano in my room and film YouTube videos. Then I met my producer in college, and they showed me this whole new world where you can have so many different instruments. You can make these drums sound really human-sounding. You can have an entire band, and then I made a band in college. Having more doors open with writing style has been really cool.” 

The development and expansion of their writing style is immediately apparent in the leap between 2018’s homespun lo-fi debut EP ‘Pockets’ and the evocative soaring confidence of ‘Paranoia Party’, in which Frances’ songwriting reaches new levels of excellence. “The difference between my first EP and the EP coming out now is that I was more experimental with all the sounds that I could use,” they explain. “’Paranoia Party’ is my favourite song that I’ve ever written,” they say of the title-track, which acts as a strong statement of intent. 

Of course, there are now new levels of attention and anticipation surrounding Frances’ work following ‘Space Girls’’ explosion last year, which is currently at 800-million-plus streams and counting, helped by a version featuring long-time Dork fave Chloe Moriondo. “She’s super nice and incredibly creative. She’s going to go really far,” says Frances.

The success of ‘Space Girl’ contrasted starkly with the situation in the world as everything shut down while Frances’ song blew up. It makes for a disorienting experience. “It’s been strange,” Frances reflects. “I see the numbers, but it’s hard for me to put a face to the numbers. We’re in the middle of a pandemic. I’m sitting in my apartment and going to college. I have a normal life. Every day people would be like, I love your song. That’s so odd but so cool. I feel like Hannah Montana!” 

‘Paranoia Party’ is the first step to Frances’ climb to global success and acts as a significant step forward. “I had to make a project to really show people what I can do and what I want to do,” they explain. “My first EP was called ‘Pockets’ because it’s like pockets from my life from when I was 16 to 19. This is more like a full concept, me as an artist. This is what I’m saying, and this is what I’m about. A lot of my identity is in my music. It’s incredibly personal.” 

The EP deals with big feelings in a brutally resonant way. There’s no mystery here, just pure feeling. “A lot of it is about mental health and being in the world when there are other people that feel exactly the same way as you,” says Frances. “It’s about trying to find community and find a home while feeling that you don’t really have a place quite yet in the world. I want my music to be that place for the people that feel along and say, ‘Hey, I’m feeling the exact same thing that you’re feeling, let’s all sing about it together and cry’.” 

Forging and nurturing those relationships with their community and the marginalised and underrepresented is central to Frances work. There’s a sense of a real movement coalescing around them, which is about more than just the music. The coolest thing to come out of ‘Space Girl’s’ success is getting DMs and seeing people make their own art,” enthuses Frances. “’Space Girl’ has become something way bigger than me. It’s like an entire culture from the amount of art made from it. It’s the coolest thing ever to have added something to the world that impacts a lot of people.” 

Frances really feels the music on a deep level. “It’s an emotional outlet for me and for everyone listening to the songs because everyone has felt that way and been through that,” they say. The desire to tackle universal feelings and emotions is forged from Frances’ earliest musical loves of Mitski and, in particular, Taylor Swift. “I grew up with a lot of Taylor Swift, and she encouraged me to start songwriting. She’s an incredible writer. My music taste has grown with her music.” 

There’s an engaging natural quality to Frances’ songs. Nothing feels forced or calculated. There’s a raw intensity to their music that cuts deep. When the inspiration strikes, the songs just pour out. “There was one time with the second verse of ‘Space Girl’ where it came to me in the middle of the cafeteria in my school,” laughs Frances. “I had a voice note where I was whispering and trying to get the melody out without seeming like a crazy person. I’ve written songs at 4 in the morning. It just happens when it happens. You have to turn on your voice notes, and it’s like, ‘Here we go!’” 

Like many artists who have been on the rise during the pandemic, Frances hasn’t yet had the opportunity to properly play live and experience the thrills of being a proper working artist. “A part of me still thinks that everything is going to stop and everything’s going to go back to normal at some point,” they confess. Somehow we think that’s unlikely. Instead, Frances is setting their sights on realising their long-held ambitions. “I want to make an album,” they proclaim confidently. “I’d love to collaborate with some of my favourite artists and do a world tour. It’s been a goal since I was really little to travel the world and play to people.” There’s an adoring audience waiting patiently to see Frances Forever in the flesh for the first time, and they’re finally ready to bring the paranoia party to the masses.

Taken from the August 2021 edition of Dork, out now. Frances Forever’s EP ‘paranoia party’ is out now.

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Frances Forever at The Fonda Theatre, Los Angeles, CA, USA

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Most played songs

• Space Girl ( 13 )
• Fuck U ( 12 )
• Frankenstein Wannabe ( 11 )
• paranoia party ( 11 )
• Treehouse ( 11 )

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Adaleve chloe moriondo

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Mildred J. Hill & Patty Hill

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44 people have seen Frances Forever live.

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Sunday 14 July 2024

Frances Forever and Grace Gardner

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1000 Frankford Ave 19125 Philadelphia, PA, US

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Doors open: 20:00

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Last time in Philadelphia: 9 months ago

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Upcoming concerts for Frances Forever

• Tuesday July 16, 2024 Frances Forever Baby's All Right, New York (NYC)

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LIVE REVIEW | Tessa Violet brings the MY GOD! Tour with Frances Forever to the Fonda Theatre in Los Angeles

Posted by Molly Hudelson | Sep 15, 2023 | Editorial , Featured , Live Reviews , Music , News , Reviews | 0 |

After releasing her third studio album,  MY GOD! , in July, Tessa Violet embarked on the MY GOD! Tour with support from Frances Forever. The tour wrapped around the Southwestern US, up the East Coast and through the Midwest, before making the trek down the West Coast (with stops in Canada along the way). The MY GOD! Tour made its penultimate stop at The Fonda Theatre in Los Angeles this past Wednesday, September 6.

Even before Tessa Violet took to the stage, there was no mistaking who was about to perform: the stage was adorned with what a stained-glass-style portrait of Violet styled as a holy figure. Wearing a bubblegum pink bodysuit and matching thigh-high boots, along with a sheer, iridescent cape, she entered to immediate applause with “YES MOM”, the lead single from  MY GOD! . But Tessa Violet doesn’t simply sing her songs. As she told the crowd at the Fonda, she performs spells: “I’m on this kick where I call songs ‘spells’ because they change the way you feel.”

But there were darker and more tender moments, too. “I Don’t Know Who I Am Without You” had a club-ready, danceable beat – though the lyrics were about grief. As Violet explained sitting down at a keyboard, “When The Curtain Falls” – a song about the loneliness that can come with success – was written after her manager suggested instead of sadness, she write a song about “something else – like being famous.” “Bad Ideas”, the title track of Violet’s 2019 sophomore album, was a sweetly romantic singalong that everyone could relate to. Whether you came to the MY GOD! Tour knowing every word, or simply wanting to have a good time – it was impossible not to fall under Tessa Violet’s spell.

Head to Tessa Violet’s website for more; or follow her on Instagram , Twitter , TikTok , YouTube , and Twitch .

About The Author

Molly Hudelson

Molly Hudelson is a music journalist and photographer who won't shut up about the bands she loves. When she's not at a show, camera (and knee brace) in hand, she's rambling about Degrassi or hanging out with her dog.

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Where They’re From: Boston, Massachusetts Similar Artists: Chloe Moriondo, carpetgarden, Beach Bunny, beabadoobee

Who is Frances Forever? Frances Forever began as the indie project of singer-songwriter Frances Garrett. Their music has an enviable variety of melodies and deeply personal lyrics that maintain relatability for their ever-growing fan base. The bouncy and fun song “space girl” has been used almost five hundred thousand times in TikTok videos that have returned millions of views. Consistent social media buzz catapulted Frances Forever onto “Artist to Watch” lists and stages across the United States as a supporting act to MisterWives . You can catch Frances Forever live on the Resilient Little Tour through December 19th . 

Recent News: As a quick follow-up to their debut EP, Paranoia Party , Frances Forever released the angsty “Certified Fool,” an anthemic track about the restlessness of adulthood. With the lyrics, “Was young and dumb but now I’m just dumb, I wanna go back to high school,” they capture the awkwardness of figuring it all out without the structure of knowing what’s next.

Songs to Listen To: “fuck u”, “space girl”, “daytime”, “depression”

Keep up with Frances Forever : Website / Facebook / Twitter / Instagram

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Discover all the details of the Tour de France 2024

Have you been waiting for them? They're here! Get ready for the Tour de France 2024 and immerse yourself in the detailed profiles, maps and timetables of this year's route.

Visit each stage page to discover our “Sport Side” section, which will tell you all about the sporting subtleties of the stage, including details of the climbs.

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When is the Tour de France 2024? How to watch and the latest odds with Tadej Pogacar the bookies' favourite

W ith five weeks to go until the 2024 Tour de France , Tadej Pogacar is the bookies’ favourite to win the yellow jersey — having won the Giro d’Italia emphatically.  

The Slovenian is looking to add to his 2020 and 2021 Tour titles, which will be easier if rival Jonas Vingegaard fails to recover from crash injuries sustained in the Itzulia Basque Country tour earlier this year.

Danish rider Vingegaard, the 2022 and 2023 Tour winner, is facing a race against time to be fit and is not on the start list for next week's Critérium du Dauphiné — a warm-up race. 

Other yellow jersey contenders Remco Evenepoel and Primož Roglič, who also both crashed on the Basque tour, have recovered to make the Critérium .

It could make for an interesting 111th edition of the race with or without its biggest names when the racing gets under way next month. 

Here is all you need to know about the 2024 Tour de France.

When is the Tour de France 2024? 

The Tour will begin with a hilly stage from Florence to Rimini in Italy on Saturday, June 29. 

From there, riders will race for 21 days and have two rest days, culminating in a time trial in Nice on Sunday, July 21. 

What is the route for the Tour?

After the four days in Italy, the Tour will cross the border to Valloire France on Tuesday, July 2 — the first high mountain stage.

It is the first time the race has had its Grand Depart in Italy. In another first, the riders will cross into San Marino on an early stage. 

The Tour will finish outside Paris for the first time as the French capital is preparing to host the Olympic Games and the Paralympics this summer.

The final stage in Nice will be a time trial, meaning the general classification order will go down to the last day. 

While usually the last day is something of a ceremony before a sprint, in 2024 it will be the second of two long time trials. 

The tough route will take in summit finishes in the French Alps, featured earlier than usual, Massif Central and the Pyrenees. Stage nine will also feature 32 kilometres (20 miles) of gravel roads. 

The severity of the stages and lack of flat finishes is bad news for sprinters including Britain's Mark Cavendish — who is seeking a record-breaking 35th Tour stage win. 

Eight stages identified as ‘flat’ could give sprinters such as Cavendish reasons to hope — but only if they can stay in the race over the mountains and make time cuts. 

The Manx rider told the Guardian : “There’s a few [sprint stages] but you’ve got to get to them — that’s the problem. 

“It’s so hard. I’m in a bit of shock, actually.”

How can I watch the Tour de France? 

ITV 4 and ITV X will be showing the Tour de France live from June 29 to July 21 with highlights shows every evening — usually at 7pm. 

In previous years, the shows have been presented by Gary Imlach with input and commentary from David Millar and Ned Boulting. 

ITV will also broadcast Critérium du Dauphiné highlights from June 4 to 11. 

Who are the bookmakers’ favourites for the 2024 Tour de France? 

Bookmakers are in an unusual position and taking bets on a race scenario with and without defending champion Jonas Vingegaard taking part. 

Oddschecker does not have the option of betting on the Dane winning the yellow jersey.

However, the odds of other contenders do shorten if he does not make the start line. 

The full list of riders will be confirmed nearer the start of the race. 

These are the Oddschecker odds as of May 30 .

Tadej Pogacar: Odds to win with Vingegaard in race (4/11) without Vingegaard (1/2)

The Slovenian is in red-hot form and could add to his two yellow jerseys. 

Primož Roglič: Both with and without Vingegaard (9/2)

Another Slovenian who has won the Giro d’Italia and Vuelta a Espana in the past but never the Tour de France, despite coming second in 2020. 

Remco Evenepoel: With and without Vingegaard (10/1)

The Belgian has previously won the Giro and is an all-rounder. 

Juan Ayuso: With and without Vingegaard (16/1)

The Spanish youngster is a teammate of Pogacar at UAE Team Emirates and could step up should misfortune strike the Slovenian but is otherwise on domestique duty.

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The Government Takes On Ticketmaster

Explaining a case that could reshape the multibillion-dollar live entertainment industry..

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.

Hi, everybody, it’s Sabrina. Before we start today, we wanted to invite you to something special. The Tribeca Festival is starting a brand new annual gala to celebrate excellence in audio. For this, the inaugural year, they’ve chosen to celebrate “The Daily.” We know you, our incredible audience, live all over the world, but we’d like to invite you to join us.

The gala is in New York, on June 9, at 5:00 pm. You can get all the details and buy tickets at tribecafil.com/thedaily. That’s tribecafilm.com/thedaily. I’ll be there, Michael too, along with a bunch of us from the show. Mo Rocca is going to host it. So if you’re in the area or you’re visiting, we’d love to see you there. OK, on with today’s show. From “The New York Times,” I’m Sabrina Tavernise. And this is “The Daily.”

I have got a bone to pick, as usual, with Ticketmaster.

The biggest problem that I have right now is not getting tickets to the Era Tour.

Loading, loading, loading. Want them so bad. Want them so bad. Want them so bad. Nope.

I looked at my account and the tickets are gone.

Over the past few years, few companies have provoked as much anger —

I cannot afford $1,500 tickets.

— among music fans.

Oh, my god.

— as Ticketmaster.

I literally hate Ticketmaster. Like, there is no company I think I hate more than Ticketmaster.

Ticketmaster ought to look in the mirror and say, I’m the problem. It’s me.

Last week, the Department of Justice announced it was taking the company to court. Today, my colleague David McCabe, on how the government’s case could reshape America’s multi-billion dollar live music industry.

It’s Thursday, May 30.

So, David, good to have you back. You have become a beloved guest at “The Daily,” because the government keeps bringing these huge antitrust cases and we keep turning to you to explain them.

Well, it’s a pleasure to be back. And today I have a question for you, which is, what was the first concert you ever went to?

Oh, my gosh. The first concert I ever went to? Oh, my god, I think it was Van Halen in the 1980s, which maybe is before you were born.

You know, no comment, but that’s a pretty good first concert.

And the case that we’re here to talk about today is actually all about shows like a Van Halen concert in 1980.

OK, I’m ready. So let’s get into it. This case, as you and I both know, is about Ticketmaster. So tell us about this case.

So anyone who attends concerts regularly or even irregularly probably knows about Ticketmaster. It’s kind of the ubiquitous digital box office. And those people are probably also familiar with the ubiquitous fan complaints about Ticketmaster — that the company puts high fees that they don’t entirely explain onto tickets, that tickets will sell out really fast during these sort of frantic pre-sales for tours, and that the website doesn’t always work very well.

And probably the most infamous Ticketmaster incident in recent memory was a couple of years ago when the pre-sale began for Taylor Swift’s massive Eras Tour. And fans got locked out, couldn’t get tickets and were absolutely furious. And it really put in the spotlight the power of this company over the ability to buy a ticket to a live music event.

So the DOJ is pointing the finger at this company for all this consumer angst at Ticketmaster.

Well, and when you say this company, it’s not just Ticketmaster. It’s the company that owns Ticketmaster, a company called Live Nation Entertainment. We’ll say Live Nation for short. And it’s a giant company. And to think about just how gigantic and how expansive Live Nation is, I think it’s helpful to think about the fan experience of going to a concert.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

It starts with buying a ticket. And maybe you buy a group of tickets for you and your friends. And then one of your friends can’t make it. They’ve got other plans. You resell their tickets so you can make your money back. And then the day of the show you go, it’s this big production. It’s at a venue. Someone has booked the artist to appear. You go, you buy a beer, you have a good time.

Live Nation is involved in many parts of that process, and that starts with being a major concert promoter. They’re the one putting it on, arranging the event. They’re also selling the tickets through Ticketmaster. Sometimes they’re also involved in reselling the tickets when your friend can’t make it.

And not only that, they actually sometimes manage the artists. And they own or operate the venues where the show is happening. So even down to that beer you’re drinking to enjoy with the show, they might be involved in picking the person who sells that beer to you.

So, basically, they’re everywhere.

They’re everywhere. And the Justice Department says that’s a big part of the problem, that its power is bad for fans.

Good morning. Earlier today, the Department of Justice —

And we really heard that come through at the press conference last week that the Justice Department held to announce this case —

People always remember the first time that they were transformed by live music.

— where Merrick Garland, the Attorney General, really personalized this issue.

I still remember, as a senior in college, going to a Bonnie Raitt concert and seeing a —

He told this story about going to a Bonnie Raitt concert in college.

Merrick Garland did?

Yeah, Merrick Garland did.

I don’t think of Merrick Garland and Bonnie Raitt together in the same sentence.

Well, apparently, in college he attended a Bonnie Raitt show. And the thing he highlighted was that the opener was a young Bruce Springsteen.

We all knew that we had just seen the future of rock and roll.

And in that story, the attorney general seems to be getting at two important threads of this case. The first is that concerts are formative for the people who attend them. And the second is that concerts are an important way that artists reach their fans. That young Bruce Springsteen went on to now be one of the biggest touring artists in the world.

The Justice Department filed this lawsuit on behalf of fans who should be able to go to concerts without a monopoly standing in their way. We have filed this lawsuit on behalf of artists who should be able —

And so the Justice Department is responding here to a feeling that Live Nation, this giant company, has become a gatekeeper for both artists and fans. And that has allowed it to pay artists less sometimes, but also charge fans those fees that they’re so mad about.

It is time for fans and artists to stop paying the price for Live Nation’s monopoly. Thank you.

So help us understand how things have gotten to this point, where Live Nation is so powerful that the DOJ feels the need to sue them.

Well, this company has a long history of tangling with the Justice Department. And that really starts in 2009, when Live Nation and Ticketmaster announced that they were going to merge. And this merger, this big corporate deal, will marry Live Nation’s concert promotion business, the business of putting on shows, with Ticketmaster’s experience as an online ticketing platform.

And the Justice Department — a big part of its job is looking at corporate mergers to figure out if they will substantially lessen competition in the economy. So the Justice Department reviews this merger, and in 2010 decides we will let this merger go through. But we do have some concerns that it might reduce competition in the industry of ticketing. And so we’re going to reach a legal settlement with Live Nation and Ticketmaster that puts conditions on the deal, that requires the company to sell some assets to kind of lessen its footprint. And so the merger goes through. And that creates the sort of modern day Live Nation, Ticketmaster combination.

So the government ultimately actually just lets it happen.

That’s right. They put conditions on the merger, but ultimately they let it go through. And the company continues to tangle with the Justice Department over the next 15 or so years. But mostly they keep getting bigger. They keep growing their footprint across this ecosystem that creates some of the biggest concert tours in the country.

So just how big has the company actually become? Give me some numbers.

Well, let’s start here. Every year, they sell about 600 million tickets.

600 million tickets? That’s more than the number of people in the United States of America.

Yeah. And that is a global number, but it’s a lot of tickets. Right? The Department of Justice estimates that in the United states, Live Nation controls about percent of ticketing to major venue concerts.

So that’s a big percentage. They also own or control, like, in excess of 250 venues, including a big percentage, the Justice Department says, of major amphitheaters, the kind of big outdoor concert venues that are ultimately kind of in between a nightclub and the size of a big football stadium. And they manage hundreds of artists. They have this direct relationship with artists. And so this company is wide and it is deep into this industry.

So ultimately, the Justice Department says that — and I’m going to quote here — it’s the, quote, “gatekeeper for delivery of nearly all live music in America today.”

OK, it’s big. But as we know from other DOJ cases — and this is something that you have taught me, David — the cases against Apple and Google, just being big is not in and of itself a problem.

That’s right. Where companies run afoul of the law is when they use their power as a monopoly against their competitors in order to stay powerful or get more powerful.

And the Justice Department says that Live Nation has built a complex machine to do just that.

We’ll be right back.

So what does the DOJ say that Live Nation is able to do because it is so big? How does it use its bigness?

So the most prominent allegation is that Live Nation uses its power as a concert promoter to entrench its power in ticketing. As a reminder, when you put together a concert, a promoter works with an artist to book the show. They book the show at a venue. And that venue, for all of its shows, has to choose a ticketing provider, a digital box office where people can buy their way into the shows.

And what the Justice Department is arguing here is that Live Nation is able to wield its big artists, the tours that it promotes, as a cudgel to force venues to use Ticketmaster, its ticketing service. So the Justice Department says that in an instance in which a venue switched away from using Ticketmaster, that Live Nation routed tours around that venue, which of course means less money for that venue and a problem for their business.

Interesting. So basically, Live Nation is saying, look, if you want Taylor Swift in your little amphitheater over there, you’re going to have to use Ticketmaster. It’s Ticketmaster or no Taylor Swift.

That is effectively the behavior the Justice Department is arguing has happened here. They’re saying that Live Nation does this in veiled ways and that, more importantly, it’s really understood by venues throughout the industry that if you don’t use Ticketmaster, that you really risk out on losing important Live Nation managed tours. And then once these venues do choose Ticketmaster, Live Nation locks them into these long, exclusive ticketing contracts, which can last for as long as 14 years.

14 years? That’s pretty long. What else is DOJ alleging that Live Nation has done?

Another thing the Justice Department says that Live Nation does is use its power as an owner of venues to get away with paying artists less money for their tours.

So how does that work?

Basically, the argument is that because Live Nation controls so many of certain types of venues, that there are instances in which an artist’s tour might largely be dominated by Live Nation owned venues. And the Justice Department is saying that Live Nation knows that artists don’t have a lot of other options for where to play their concerts and, as a result, is able to pay those artists less. Because there’s not competitive pressure when they’re booking those tours.

That seems pretty unfair to artists who would really benefit from other venues owned by other people competing for them.

And that’s exactly what the Justice Department is saying, that artists lose out, not just fans. And there’s a striking story in the complaint that I think crystallizes how the Justice Department sees these streams of power coming together.

And it concerns a concert, which the lawsuit doesn’t name, in 2021. My colleague Ben Sisario has reported that it was a Kanye West concert featuring Drake. It was a benefit show, and it was taking place at the LA Coliseum in Los Angeles.

One of the companies involved in putting on this show was a firm called TEG. They do promotion and ticketing of the kind that Live Nation does. And the government says that Live Nation saw this as a threat, that they saw this company TEG involved in this show, and they were worried about what it would mean for them, and that they then undertook steps to put pressure on TEG and make their life difficult in a couple of ways.

The first was that TEG had reached a deal to sell some tickets, according to the complaint, through StubHub. StubHub is a secondary resale market. You can buy tickets to shows when people aren’t going to use them.

Right, and competitor to Ticketmaster, right?

And competitor to Ticketmaster. And the Justice Department says that Live Nation found out about that and said, well, we have the exclusive ticketing contract for this venue. And so we will make sure that if you bought your ticket on StubHub, you won’t be allowed to come in to this show.

Really? Like, they couldn’t come into the concert?

Well, and ultimately, the complaint says that StubHub had to work with Ticketmaster to fulfill the tickets that had already been sold, that they stopped selling new tickets, and that hundreds of people who bought their tickets on StubHub didn’t get into the show.

That seems very unfair. Like, they bought a ticket.

Well, and according to the Justice Department, it didn’t stop there, that Live Nation used its industry connections to pressure an investor in TEG, this company that it viewed as a threat, and that it pushed that investor to pull back from its relationship with TEG, which obviously would have weakened this potential competitor.

So these are very strong armed tactics. What is the DOJ saying is the result of all of this? What does all of this amount to?

It says that all of this adds up to higher fees for consumers and a worse product, a worse quality ticketing experience when fans go to buy. Because Live Nation doesn’t have to compete with anyone. It doesn’t have to innovate in response to competitors. So, among other things, the Justice Department wants to break this company up, at the very least by separating Ticketmaster, the ticketing unit, the box office unit, from the rest of Live Nation that does all these other things — promotes concerts, owns venues, et cetera.

So in other words, go back to the way it was in the beginning.

Yeah, or as much as you can.

And why does that fix the problem?

Well, the Justice Department doesn’t say a lot on this point. But it’s clear that what they want to do with this lawsuit is disrupt this cycle where Live Nation’s power reinforces itself again, and again, and again.

And what does Live Nation say in response? I imagine they disagree with all of this.

They do. They’ve said a lot. And they start out by saying something that will be familiar to you, because other companies that have been accused of antitrust violations say it as well, which is that they don’t fit the profile of a monopoly, that their overall profit margins are lower than those of companies like Meta, or Apple, or Google, and that even if you look at Ticketmaster specifically, they take a smaller percentage of every sale than a lot of other digital platforms. So they say basically the numbers show that we don’t have the kind of power you would normally associate with a monopoly.

And then they say, listen, we know that there are things that fans don’t like about the ticketing experience. There may be fixes to those. But largely, it’s not Live Nation’s fault, they say. They say that artists generally set the prices they want people to pay for tickets.

Really? So artists themselves do it.

Right, that artists sign off on how much a ticket will cost to their shows.

And they also say that demand sometimes drives ticket prices up. If there are more people who want to see a show than there are seats or standing room to see that show, the prices will be higher. And finally, they say that there’s this kind of pernicious outside force of scalpers, people who resell tickets, that use bots to hoover up way more tickets than they could possibly use and then resell them at a higher price. And so they say that all of these things may contribute to a fan experience that people don’t like, but that it’s not necessarily Live Nation’s fault.

I mean, to me, this makes certain sense. I guess if you think of a Taylor Swift show and lots of people trying to buy tickets, one reason why those tickets are expensive is not necessarily because there’s something nefarious going on, but because lots of people want to buy tickets. And there’s a market, and supply and demand has a role here.

Well, and a clear question here that I have, that other people have asked, is how much does the Justice Department think ticket prices have gone up because of this alleged Live Nation monopoly? And the Justice Department hasn’t answered that question.

They haven’t disentangled it with all of the other stuff that’s around — market forces, everything?

That’s right. And there’s another element of Live Nation’s response that we should mention, which is that the company basically says this lawsuit is politically motivated, that this administration, the Biden administration, is bringing lawsuits that don’t hold a lot of water but are anti-business. That’s what Live Nation is saying.

I mean, it does sort of ring true in some sense. Right? This has been the tilt of this administration toward cracking down on big companies. The DOJ has changed in this respect. They’re filing a lawsuit to break up a merger that a previous DOJ had actually approved.

Well, you’re right. This Department of Justice, this administration more broadly, has a different view about antitrust. They think that antitrust law can be a more expansive tool to address problems in the economy. And they’ve put that into practice. They’ve sued Google for violating anti-monopoly laws. They’ve sued Apple for violating anti-monopoly laws.

But I think ultimately what they believe is that they’re responding to a change in the economy, that these companies have gotten much bigger, that they have gotten more powerful. And they are responding to the way the companies broke the law on their way to becoming that big.

So, David, when you and I talked about Google and Apple — you referenced them here — you know, we talked about how there were broad repercussions for the future on American society. What would you say the implications are in this case?

This case ultimately, for the Justice Department, is about the market for culture and creativity. You know, a few years ago, the Justice Department successfully blocked Penguin Random House, a big publisher, from buying Simon and Schuster, another publisher. And they said that one problem with this merger was that it would reduce how much authors got paid, and that it would create a market where fewer books and fewer types of stories broke through.

This Justice Department is embracing an idea that the more concentrated the economy gets, the more it stifles creative expression, the ability of artists to make art and get it to the public and the ability of the public to consume it. And that, they say, is a central question of democracy. Because things like music are how we talk about big social issues or big political issues. So that is, they say, what’s at the heart of this case, that it is not just about the fees, it’s not just about how much an artist gets paid. But it’s about whether or not there is a fair marketplace for ideas, and whether or not consumers are able to access it.

David, thank you.

Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING]

Here’s what else you should know today. On Wednesday, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito declined to recuse himself from two cases arising from the January 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol after “The Times” reported that flags displayed outside his houses appeared to support the Stop the Steal movement. In letters to Democratic members of Congress who had demanded his recusal, Justice Alito said that the flags, at his home in Virginia and a beach house in New Jersey, were flown by his wife, Martha Ann, and that he had had nothing to do with it.

And a group of 12 New York jurors deliberated for more than four hours in the final stretch of the criminal trial of Donald Trump, in which the former president is accused of falsifying business records. The jurors asked for portions of the testimony from two witnesses to be read back to them, as well as the judge’s instructions. They were then dismissed for the day and will resume deliberations today.

Today’s episode was produced by Will Reid, Rob Szypko and Rachelle Bonja. It was edited by Michael Benoit and Brendan Klinkenberg, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, and Will Reid, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Sabrina Tavernise. See you tomorrow.

• June 3, 2024   •   32:07 How Trump’s Conviction Could Reshape the Election
• May 31, 2024   •   31:29 Guilty
• May 30, 2024   •   25:21 The Government Takes On Ticketmaster
• May 29, 2024   •   29:46 The Closing Arguments in the Trump Trial
• May 28, 2024   •   25:56 The Alitos and Their Flags
• May 24, 2024   •   25:18 Whales Have an Alphabet
• May 23, 2024   •   34:24 I.C.C. Prosecutor Requests Warrants for Israeli and Hamas Leaders
• May 22, 2024   •   23:20 Biden’s Open War on Hidden Fees
• May 21, 2024   •   24:14 The Crypto Comeback
• May 20, 2024   •   31:51 Was the 401(k) a Mistake?
• May 19, 2024   •   33:23 The Sunday Read: ‘Why Did This Guy Put a Song About Me on Spotify?’
• May 17, 2024   •   51:10 The Campus Protesters Explain Themselves

Hosted by Sabrina Tavernise

Featuring David McCabe

Produced by Will Reid ,  Rob Szypko and Rachelle Bonja

Edited by Brendan Klinkenberg and Michael Benoist

Original music by Marion Lozano ,  Dan Powell and Will Reid

Engineered by Alyssa Moxley

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Over recent years, few companies have provoked more anger among music fans than Ticketmaster. Last week, the Department of Justice announced it was taking the business to court.

David McCabe, who covers technology policy for The Times, explains how the case could reshape America’s multibillion-dollar live music industry.

On today’s episode

David McCabe , a technology policy correspondent for The New York Times.

Background reading

The government is accusing Ticketmaster’s corporate parent, Live Nation Entertainment, of violating antitrust laws .

Here’s a guide to the emails at the heart of the government’s case .

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We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode’s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.

The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Sydney Harper, Mike Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, John Ketchum, Nina Feldman, Will Reid, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Sophia Lanman, Shannon Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Summer Thomad, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez and Brendan Klinkenberg.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Lisa Tobin, Larissa Anderson, Julia Simon, Sofia Milan, Mahima Chablani, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Renan Borelli, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson, Nina Lassam and Nick Pitman.

David McCabe covers tech policy. He joined The Times from Axios in 2019. More about David McCabe

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As we enter a year filled with anticipation, a prevalent question surfaces: Will Pope Francis make a return to Argentina after a decade of his pontificate? This query resonates with many, as Pope Francis has often voiced his wish to revisit his homeland - a trip that would be his first as the pontiff. Despite this desire, health issues have been a concern, notably his influenza, which, while unrelated to his overall health that necessitated two surgeries in the past three years, led to the cancellation of his intended trip to Dubai for COP28.

In an interview with Televisa, Pope Francis has detailed plans for three potential trips in the upcoming year: to Argentina, Belgium for the 600th anniversary of the University of Louvain, and to Polynesia. Of these, the visit to Belgium is confirmed.

Polynesia emerges as an unexpected destination , having never been mentioned by the Pope previously, in contrast to his expressed interest in visiting Papua New Guinea. A trip incorporating Thailand was also under consideration during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Belgium, on the other hand, is a definitive stop . With preliminary announcements emanating from Brussels, the visit is slated for September, implying that a journey to Polynesia would likely be scheduled for the summer.

Meanwhile, Argentina might feature in the Pope's itinerary in the early months of the year . A notable occasion is the rescheduled canonization of Mamma Antula, Argentina's Spiritual Mother, now set for February 11 instead of May. While canonizations are typically held in Rome and presided over by the Pope, there is a possibility that Pope Francis may exceptionally conduct this ceremony in Buenos Aires. February or March are being considered as probable for this potential visit to Argentina.

The earlier speculation of a trip to Kosovo appears to have been dismissed. Kosovo, a state not recognized by the Holy See, was mentioned by the Pope in an interview with Vida Nueva prior to his journey to Mongolia.

An additional, highly symbolic visit has been proposed: Pope Francis has received an invitation to visit Vietnam, extended by the country's Government Committee for Religious Affairs . The invitation, sent to Santa Marta, encourages the Pope to witness firsthand the socio-economic progress and religious life in this Southeast Asian nation.

As per the committee, Vietnam's President Thuong has conveyed his and the country's seven million Catholics' eagerness to welcome the Pope. He noted the profound impression left by his encounters with Pope Francis and Cardinal Pietro Parolin during his Vatican visit in July.

Significantly, on December 23, the Holy See appointed its first resident representative in Hanoi, marking a crucial step towards establishing full diplomatic relations.

Nonetheless, the number of Pope Francis's trips is expected to be no more than three.

This article was originally published on ACI Stampa. 

Andrea Gagliarducci is an Italian journalist for Catholic News Agency and Vatican analyst for ACI Stampa. He is a contributor to the National Catholic Register.